Friday, July 08, 2005

Just feel like typing

It's 1:15 in the morning. But I am not tired yet. My spirit is filled with peace and I am really feeling Gods closeness. So I am going to write about what is going through my head at this time.

I have been following a blog that is talking about authority and some thoughts have come to mind. All too often people get afraid of the word authority because it has been abused in the past. I think I found a new understanding of it today. I was thinking about the great leaders in the bible. They all had people following them. Noah, Abraham, etc. These people that followed, had minds of thier own, they could pray if they chose to, heck they could have even asked God for some direction themselves. They chose to trust the person that was speaking to them. It was never required that the people followed. (at least not to my understanding) In fact some rebelled and faced Gods consequences. This made sense to me as they submitted willingly as they saw God in thier leaders lives.
We need to be behind our pastors and elders as they seek the heart of God for the direction of the church they are responsible for overseeing. The mistake comes in where people think that the leaders seek the heart of God for the flock where a truly Godly leader will direct the sheep to the shepherd. May we all just stop the debates and focus on the one who put us here in the first place!!!

Personal words:

This is not my response to my previous post but this is really on my heart tonight also. I believe with all my heart that as we seek the heart of God (no agenda), sit at his feet and really listen to his written word, spending time with him in literally hours of silence, and disciplining ourselves to be still, I believe that we get to see his heart. He desires to show us his heart. His word is full of admonition and affirmation. I think that he speaks to us through his written word and through his Holy Spirit. I believe that the Holy Spirit points out people that really need an encouraging word. When you look at a personal word, most words can and should be found in the word of God.

Its a great morning.

Thank you God for your presence in our lives. May we all take time to enjoy it.


rene the rugrat said...

I really have nothing to say, but I agree with you. We need to pray for and not complain about our leaders and take confidence that God placed them over us.

And as I said on my blog I have been really blessed by just going before with no agenda. Sometimes I think I really do have an agenda when I begin to speak, but every so often God surprises me and he is the only explaination for me being where I am.

the bloggless one said...

i have been doing an experiment in critical thinking...i've been reading your blog, and also the blog of someone else who is studying's a great workout for my peabrain, reading and thinking and comparing notes. I am interested to continue following your two journeys, because I believe that time WILL show the truth...and perhaps arguements and debates will shed light but won't necessarily open blinded eyes.....

Anonymous said...

In my spiritual walk with God, I have not found a scriptural basis for having any human being expect that I would yield to his/her authority. I can choose to be accountable to someone that the Holy Spirit has placed in a leadership position but ultimately, as a man, my only true authority is in Christ and I must be totally obedient to Him in order to fully walk in His purposes for my life.

Song of Joy said...

You said, "May we all just stop the debates and focus on the one who put us here in the first place". My question to you would be, "what is wrong with debate?" I believe it is very important for people to wrestle with issues, looking at God's word and being in conversation with others. I think it builds a much firmer foundation than just accepting what people tell you. I don't think there is anything wrong with honestly studying God's word to see if what someone says is true, is actually what it says in Scripture.

CWG said...

When I think of authority I also dont expect or want to see anyone lord autority over people. I once heard that authority is given not taken. Think about your best friend. Does he/she not have the authority to speak into your life and give you guidance and direction? Or your spouse, do they not have the authority in your relation to show you areas of your life that may need some healing or whatever. You see I beleve that authority really is given out of relationship. If you build a relationship, you will trust the person that you are in relationship with that person. Granted it can be both ways you should have authority to speak into your freinds lives also. Authority is not meant to be lorded over and if it is then your right it is out of context. But with that said if you are attending a church where God has established the leadership within, it is your responsibility to submit to the call that is on your pastors life for the church that he is responsible for. In that you will
make his job easy and he can focus on what God has asked him to do.
Take a moment with me here: Men in the Old testiment were called by God to do many things. Many of these guys took people with them. Study thier walk. People who followed these guys, trusted them.They submitted themselves the the man they were with. They saw that God had spoken to them. I see that the only authority that these men carried was in what God asked them to do. Moses walked under God's authority when he led others out of Egypt. People that submitted themselves under that authority walked under authority. not moses authority but under the authority of
the viion God had for Moses. I believe that if Moses would have done something else, he would not have had the authority to lead others. Now I'm rambling but in ending authority is given not taken.
And it WILL lead you to Christ.

I personally dont enjoy debates. Personally I think that debates are opinions of those debating, it also has a large tendancy to create disunity among believers if people dont agree. There in only one interpretation of scripture. That is where I am desiring to move in. (not that I know it yet) The bible has one meaning and one interpretation and too often we get bogged down in our own views and opinions of the verse or passage in question. I am not opposed to searching for truth as we all need to search for it. In answer to your question though....My desire is that people would stop debating and focus on thier relationship with the author of the bible. In that he will reveal his truths. Jer 33:3 "Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things that you do not know".

Song of Joy said...

I agree with you that the focus needs to be on the author of the Word.

But IS there only ONE interpretation of scripture? I think there are things in the Word of God that have had different meanings to different people at different times. How can a person know what is the ONE interpretation? You talk about opinions and interpretation as two different things, but aren't most interpretations a person's particular opinion on what they believe the Word of God is saying?

What if what God reveals to me is different than what He reveals to you and what if that is different than what He reveals to a church leader? What does that mean? Does it mean one person does not hear from God while the other person does? This is where church divisions have resulted. I don't want disunity but I want to respect people for their different opinions/interpretations of what they feel God is saying to them. And I'm not talking about the foundations of the Christian faith - just the periphery issues.

CWG said...

RE: "But IS there only ONE interpretation of scripture"?
Hank Hanegraaff summed it up best when he said:
"The Holy Spirit inspired the Bible, and He also helps us understand it. The Holy Spirit plays an indispensable role in our reading and our interpretation of the bible. Now, normally the Holy Spirit does not give us special revelations about the meaning of the Scripture.
He generally does not whisper in our ears the correct interpretation of specific verses. When the Holy Spirit inspired the Bible He did so by working through the minds of the prophets and apostles who wrote it. In the same way, the Holy Spirit works through our careful and diligent study of the Scripture. Indeed, the Bible explicitly commands us to study with diligence. If we keep this in mind, we will not make the mistake of assuming that any sudden insights we get into the meaning of the Bible are infallible revelations from the Spirit. It's just simly a further understanding of the truth. Nor will we let anyone tell us that interpretations of the bible must be accepted because the Holy Spirit revealed this to them.
The Bible is not abstract art, which we can look at any way we want to. Instead, the Bible is a collection of history books, songs, proverbs, letters, sermons and prophecies. Yet having said this, I’m well aware of the fact that people do interpret the bible very differently. You see to “interpret” the Bible properly, you just can’t take a part of it and interpret it in some fanciful manner. Some people, of course, do that, but they’re not really interpreting the Bible — what they’re doing is simply playing with it".

"What if what God reveals to me is different than what He reveals to you or a church leader"?

To me it's all about relationship. If your church leader is a man worthy of respect, the husband of one wife, not given to drunkeness and manages his family well, he has been approaved biblically. If a relationship is then build with that leader, you can work together. Then if you have something that doesn't quite fit, you can bring it forward and it can be weighed together. It's all about being a part of the body. Your leader may be an ear but you may be an eye. I think that it is a matter of attitude. If we are truly committed to a church we will be that eye to the best of our ability, and if things are in good relationship you can be the eye and your leader can be the ear or whatever body part they function in.

Just a note: It is clearly stated in the description for my blog that....."My desire here is to upload my thoughts from my mind to some place in the cyber world, and hopefully you will be edified and encouraged as I share the things that I am learning and processing".... I do not hold claim to "bring forth" truth, just sharing my journey as I "search" for truth!

plodder said...

A related point of discussion could be "who is a bonafide authority in the church, and what is the church?" Is it the leader of the non-profit organization that meets in a specific building and calls itself the church? What relevance does Matthew 20:25-25 have on this topic, if any?

Song of Joy said...

Dear CWG:
Thank you for your thoughts. I haven't taken your post or comments as "bringing forth truth". I'm interested in the discussion. It helps me to understand where you are coming from (that's why I've asked for clarification on some things). It adds a different perspective as I study the Word of God.

CWG said...

Hey Plodder:
Thanks for commenting :)
Perhaps the word authority has a negative conitation to it. Generation X has been duped by negative authority figures and have been forced to be cautious of the word. I know, I was there. You see I used to view things differently. (I
will blog on that tonight) Up until 2 years ago when my pastor started to spend time with me and mentor me. To see his heart for God and the church that he is accountable for was life changing. I submit myself to him not out of some domineering Lordship or some need on his part to control, but because I love him and I desire to go with him where he is going. In short.....relationship opens the door for others to speak into your life.
I view the church as the body of Christ. Those who know Christ as thier personal Lord and savior. In context to building's or "church's" I see it as different parts of the body. Families if you will.
I'm not sure what you mean by Matt 20:25?

WW: Thank you also for commenting...It is very wise of you to not follow blindly. God expects us all to seek his heart for righteousness and understanding. the cool thing is that he will answer your questions as you seek his heart and study his word...Bless you as you search for truth. :) (You are growing so much).

LT said...


I can't help but to think that you are responding to my posts on authority and my critique of John Bevere. In both your post and the comments you mentioned a negative view of authority in this generation. Perhaps this a response to me and perhaps it is not. Either way I'd like to explain where I'm coming from.

I function very well as a staff person in a bible college which is a faith community with more established hierarchy than a local church. It was only a little more than a month ago that I personally approached a leader in the college and encouraged he/she to be courageous and lead through some conflict because he/she is the leader.

The issue I have with "Covering theology" as expressed in Bevere's book is that it is unbiblical. I've discussed the theology of this book with a handful of other church leaders and theological types who no one would consider anti-authoritarian and they are just as concerned as I am.

I am deeply concerned that there are people who strongly stress the importance of obeying God through "delegated authority" that treat God's written authority in such a shameful manner.

CWG said...

Hey LT:
To be honest, I did read your post on that topic and it did spur me to think further about authority. My post was in no way a smite against yours. I appreciate the wisdom and insight that you bring to others and share on your blog. that is why I have you linked on my blog roll.
I wasn't speaking to you specifically in my comments or post.
I do believe however that our generation has been burnt by authority figures and it has left a sour taste in our mouths. Don't worry I wasn't attacking you silently.
Yes your blog caught my attention but this is something that I am also trying to grasp myself at this point. I really wish that I could explain it the way that I feel it. As you probably read earlier, maybe it is a poor word to use.
Come back to my blog, I am planning on blogging about my journey and it may shed some light on where I am at.
Lets hook up for a Starbucks coffee and hot chocholate in the next week or two and talk in more depth about this.

Nin said...

Greetings everyone :)
I have always found debate to be fun as well. Growing up, my friends used to tell me that I should become a lawyer, because I argued so well. God has been showing me how to use wisdom when speaking. So many times I've used my communication skills, to beat up those with lesser skills than I. Words are a powerful thing. They can used for great good, but also great harm. It's been hard learning the difference, and trying to walk in wisdom, I'm not there yet. I think the key is, is to not break right relationship. When my words are harming another, it's probably not wise that I'm speaking them. I hear what Worship Warrior is saying about how many times God says one thing to one person than another person says He told them confusing. God has told me things personally, that He does not want me to walk in or participate in. I stand by those convictions. However, I see many others walking in those things. Does that mean that they are wrong? Nope. It just means that God has called me down a different path. I look at these people, and see people of the Lord, mighty warriors of our body, and a threat to the kingdom of darkness. I see these things are not breaking their relationships with others or God, so I move on. These things that God has told me not to participate in are not huge, they're those little grey things.....that could be interpreted from the word, and maybe could not. I believe He directs His children how to walk, and when faced with grey issues, He gives guidance. He calls us to walk on different paths.

LT said...

I'd love to get together. Feel free to email me or hook me up on your MSN.

CWG said...

I guess that when it comes to debate, I like to end in the truth. Debates can at times get us there, but not always. Flowerlady had a good comment on Worship Warriors blog which talks about discussion vs debate. I have no problem hashing out a verse with some one or some type of theology, I just like to end up with the truth and I find debating gets me lost in the conversation. One reson could be that I'm not well versed and cannot hold a debate very well.
You are right Nin, we do need to follow where God leads and directs us and trust him to work on the gray areas.
Thank you all for your comments..